APAR Industries Q1 FY25 Earnings Conference Call Summary
Submission Details
• Date of submission: August 6, 2024
• Call date: July 30, 2024
• Compliance: SEBI (LODR) Regulations
• Transcript available on the company's website
• Key participants:
• Mr. Kushal Desai (Chairman and Managing Director)
• Mr. Chaitanya Desai (Managing Director)
• Mr. Ramesh Iyer (CFO)
• Moderated by Mr. Ambesh Tiwari
Financial Performance
• Consolidated Revenue: INR 4,011 crores (6.5% YoY increase)
• Domestic business growth: 43.4%
• Export revenue decline: 25.9%
• EBITDA: INR 394 crores (6.8% increase)
• Profit After Tax: INR 203 crores (2.6% increase)
Industry Insights
• Significant growth in India's transformation capacity
• Challenges in transmission line additions due to national elections
• Renewable energy sector growth: Installed capacity at 195 gigawatts
Segment Performance
• Conductor Business: 9.1% growth
• Oil Division: 6.1% revenue increase
• Cable Business: 7.8% revenue growth, strong domestic sales
Competitive Landscape
• Challenges for EPC companies and new entrants in manufacturing AL-59 conductors
• Logistics disruptions impacting export order inflows
• Optimism for normalization post-September due to U.S. duties on Chinese products
Product and Market Insights
• Transformer oil business growth: 20% increase
• Lubricant business: Double-digit growth; declines in process and white oil segments
• Cable segment projected growth: 25% annual growth with margins of 10-12%
Challenges and Strategies
• Competition in the conductor market and regulatory complexities
• Impact of declining copper and aluminum prices on margins mitigated by a full hedge book
• Anticipated growth in the automotive sector driven by B2B sales
Capex and Future Outlook
• Capex plan: INR 300-350 crores for the year and next
• Strong demand for transformer oil despite geopolitical challenges
• Expected recovery in demand from the U.S. market
Conclusion
• Overall optimism for growth in higher-margin products
• Strong domestic demand despite short-term disruptions
• Focus on optimizing product mix to enhance margins

Submission Details
• Date of submission: May 20, 2024
• Compliance: SEBI (LODR) Regulations, 2015
• Call date: May 14, 2024
• Key participants:
• Mr. Kushal Desai (Chairman and Managing Director)
• Mr. Chaitanya Desai (Managing Director)
• Mr. Ramesh Iyer (CFO)
• Transcript availability: Company website
Financial Performance
• Q4 FY '24 Results:
• Consolidated revenue: INR 4,455 crores (9% YoY increase)
• EBITDA: INR 457 crores (3% increase)
• Profit after tax: INR 236 crores (3% decrease)
• Full Fiscal Year Results:
• Revenue: INR 16,153 crores (13% increase)
• Profit after tax: INR 825 crores (29% increase)
Industry Trends
• Shortfall in transmission line additions.
• Strong performance in renewable energy (81% of new capacity).
• Revenue growth in divisions:
• Conductors: 10% increase in Q4
• Oil: 3% increase (driven by transformer oil)
• Cables: 15% increase
Market Challenges and Outlook
• Concerns about competition from Chinese exporters.
• Potential short-term demand slowdown due to elections.
• Long-term growth prospects remain optimistic.
Strategic Discussions
• Export Strategy:
• Focus on premium conductors in the U.S. market.
• Expected improvement in U.S. demand next year.
• Capacity Expansion:
• Planned capital expenditure: INR 350-400 crores.
• Premium conductors account for 49% of total conductor value.
Supply and Demand Insights
• Supply issues resolved; capacity expansion underway.
• Transition from conventional aluminum conductors to AL-59 completed.
• Renewable energy capacity utilization is high.
Competitive Landscape
• Increased competition from Chinese manufacturers.
• Anticipated 25% year-on-year growth in the cable segment.
• Strong domestic cable business growth from wind and solar projects.
Segment-Specific Insights
• Transformer Oil:
• 15% annual growth reported for FY '24.
• 12-16% contribution from the U.S. market.
• Cables Division:
• Expected 25% year-on-year value growth.
• Market share in power cables estimated at 1.5%.
Future Growth Opportunities
• Focus on energy transition trends.
• Strategic decision to avoid transformer manufacturing to maintain supplier relationships.
• Optimism about growth driven by infrastructure investments and renewable energy projects.

Submission Details
• Date of submission: February 5, 2024
• Compliance with SEBI (LODR) Regulations, 2015
• Conference call date: January 30, 2024
• Key personnel:
• Mr. Kushal Desai (Chairman and Managing Director)
• Mr. Chaitanya Desai (Managing Director)
• Mr. Ramesh Iyer (CFO)
• Transcript available on the company website
Financial Highlights
• Q3 FY24 Results:
• Consolidated revenue: INR 4,013 crores (2% YoY increase)
• EBITDA: INR 432 crores (24% increase)
• Profit after tax: INR 218 crores (28% increase)
• Nine-month period results:
• Revenue: INR 11,711 crores (14% increase)
• Profit after tax: 49% increase
Sector Updates
• Power sector:
• Added 3,841 circuit kilometers of transmission lines
• Strong order books for substations
• Conductor business: 4% revenue growth driven by domestic demand
• Oil division: 8% revenue increase
• Cable business: Flat performance due to US inventory issues, growth in other markets
Future Outlook
• Optimism about stabilization of freight prices
• Confidence in growth drivers in domestic and global markets
• Updated corporate presentation available on the website
Q&A Highlights
• HTLS Conductors:
• Increased interest from state utilities, demand expected to rise
• AL-59 Conductors:
• Transition from ACSR to AL-59, leading to improved margins
• BharatNet Telecom Tenders:
• Advanced discussions, potential delays due to elections
• Transformer Oil Business:
• 16% QoQ and 12% YoY growth, driven by strong demand
Segment Projections
• Conductor Division:
• Projected 15% volume growth in FY25
• Cable Business:
• Expected 25% CAGR driven by increased electrical usage
• International Business:
• Anticipated recovery in FY25, despite recent softness
Capital Expenditure and Growth Targets
• Planned annual spend: INR 300 crores for capacity expansion
• Growth targets:
• 20-25% growth in cables
• Over 15% growth in conductors
• Double-digit growth in transformer oil segment
Competitive Landscape
• Concerns about competition from Chinese products
• Supply chain issues affecting oil business profitability
• Stable long-term outlook for transformer oil demand
Closing Remarks
• Acknowledgment of short-term challenges
• Strong long-term growth drivers leading to a positive outlook for future performance

Earnings Highlights
• Consolidated Revenue: Increased by 21% year-on-year to ₹3,926 crores.
• Exports Growth: Significant 26.3% growth in exports.
• EBITDA: Rose 58% to ₹374 crores.
• Profit After Tax: Increased by 69% to ₹174 crores.
• Conductor Division: 35% revenue increase, driving overall performance.
• Oil Division: Faced supply chain challenges but showed recovery signs.
• Cable Business: Experienced a slowdown in certain distribution channels.
Investor Communication
• Investor Presentation: Detailed presentation and third ESG report available on the website.
• Postal Ballot Notice: Issuance of securities discussed; no business guidance questions allowed.
Q&A Session Insights
• Order Book: 51% exports and 49% domestic for conductors.
• Freight Rates: Current rates stable; factored into pricing strategies.
• EBITDA per Tonne: Positive trend due to product premiumization and improved execution.
• Exports Outlook: Cautious due to high distributor inventory; long-term demand positive from renewable energy shifts.
Market Dynamics
• Renewable Energy Shift: Expected increase in electricity's share from 20% to 40% by 2050.
• De-inventorization: Tactical response to higher interest costs; underlying demand remains strong.
Capital Expenditure Plans
• Capex Spending: Approximately ₹150 crores spent; total plan of ₹350-400 crores for the year.
• New Capacities: Expected to be operational by FY2025.
Project Opportunities
• Bharat Net Initiative: APAR plans to bid for end-to-end solutions.
• U.S. Investment: $3.5 billion for grid reconductoring; APAR well-positioned to participate.
Oil Segment Insights
• Supply Chain Issues: Recent challenges affecting margins; shipments normalized.
• Pricing Impact: Higher Q2 prices will affect Q3 due to delivery timing.
Transformer Demand
• U.S. Market: Transformer shortage due to increased renewable energy projects; APAR focusing on domestic market.
• Logistics Costs: High costs prevent APAR from exporting transformer oil to the U.S.
Conclusion
• Growth Outlook: Optimistic about domestic and export markets for reconductoring opportunities.
• Focus on EBITDA: Emphasis on EBITDA per metric ton as a key performance metric.
• Closing Remarks: Desai wished everyone a prosperous Diwali and New Year.

Event Overview
• Date: August 30, 2023
• Event: Investor Day on August 24, 2023
• Participants: Key management including Chairman and Managing Director
• Content: Business overview, divisional presentations, financial review, ESG initiatives, Q&A
Company Mission and Values
• Mission: Energy-efficient and sustainable solutions
• Core Values: Innovation and accountability
Growth Strategy
• Focus Areas:
• Renewable energy (wind, solar, nuclear)
• Infrastructure investments (public transportation)
• Electric vehicle (EV) market growth
• Key Growth Areas: Specialty oils, lubricants, conductors, cables, telecom solutions
Market Position
• Renewable Energy: Leader in solar cables, significant in wind
• Infrastructure: Key supplier for railway electrification and public transport
Electric Vehicle Market
• Growth Projection: 49% CAGR
• Challenges: Inadequate charging infrastructure
• Company Offerings: Auto cables, EV charging harnesses
Conductor Manufacturing
• Production Plans: Augment transmission lines by 18,000 circuit kilometers
• Market Demand: 4.5 million metric tons projected globally
• Technological Advancements: HTLS conductors, OPGW cables
Specialty Oils and Lubricants
• Product Range: Transformer oil, biodegradable oils, technical-grade oils
• Market Strategy: Focus on premiumization and high-margin products
• Distribution Network: Five mega warehouses, 14 satellite depots
Innovations and Technology
• E-beam Technology: Enhances cable performance and safety
• Sustainability Focus: Biodegradable transformer oil, new product developments
Telecommunications Sector
• Market Trends: Shift towards data-driven solutions, 5G networks
• Investment Projections: Telecom operators to double investments to $1.3 trillion
• APAR's Role: Comprehensive telecom solutions including optical fiber cables
Future Initiatives
• Expansion Plans: Increase B2C segment, enhance distribution, launch loyalty programs
• Product Demonstrations: Targeting 60,000 demos to showcase products
Conclusion
• Outlook: Positioned for sustained growth through innovation, market expansion, and sustainability.
Summary of APAR's August 24, 2023 Conference Call
Company Overview
• Discussed optical fiber cables and strategic initiatives for telecom and power sectors
• Growth in OPGW and ADSS cable businesses since 2017
• Introduction of hybrid products for tower and IoT connectivity
Strategic Goals
• Aim for global expansion in 20 countries, maintaining presence in India, Europe, Middle East
• Focus on customer retention through innovative solutions and global distributor model
• Plans to enter telecom services market with passive solutions
Financial Performance
• Revenue growth from INR 8,000 crores in FY '19 to INR 14,300 crores in FY '23
• Low debt-to-equity ratio of 0.14 in FY '23
• Strong export market presence, nearly half from exports
Sustainability Initiatives
• Commitment to sustainability aligned with UN Sustainable Development Goals
• Reduction of Scope 2 emissions, energy-saving projects
• Increased renewable energy share from 4% to 18%, targeting 30% by next year
Employee Engagement and Governance
• High employee engagement with 81% feeling connected
• Transparent governance and improved ESG practices
Market Position and Product Differentiation
• Current market share in cable division at 20%, aiming for 30-35%
• Focus on premiumization in conductor division, tailored solutions in lubricants
• Plans for significant growth in telecom division, targeting INR 1,000 crores in revenue
Future Growth and Expansion Plans
• Capital expenditure of approximately INR 400 crores for new equipment and facilities
• Expansion in conductor capacity and new cable production site planned
• Emphasis on niche products and competitive pricing
Conclusion
• APAR is strategically positioned for growth with a focus on sustainability, customer-centric solutions, and market expansion.

Submission Details
• Date of submission: August 4, 2023
• Compliance with SEBI (LODR) Regulations, 2015
• Conference call date: July 31, 2023
• Key speakers:
• Mr. Kushal Desai (Chairman and Managing Director)
• Mr. Ramesh Iyer (Chief Financial Officer)
Financial Performance
• Consolidated Revenue: INR 3,773 crores (22% YoY increase)
• Exports Contribution: 53% of total revenue
• EBITDA: INR 369 crores (54% increase)
• Profit After Tax: INR 197 crores (61% increase)
Business Highlights
• Industry Growth: Significant growth in India's power transmission infrastructure.
• Segment Performance:
• Conductor business: 15% revenue growth
• Oil division: 13% revenue growth
• Cable business: 52% revenue growth
Market Outlook
• Domestic Market: Strong outlook, but caution on potential short-term export slowdowns.
• B2C Strategy: Unique product offerings with a goal of INR 500 crores revenue by FY '26.
Management Insights
• Conductor Business: Continued guidance of 10% volume growth.
• Cables Segment: INR 350-400 crores capex plan; focus on premium products.
• Export Growth: Strong performance linked to conductor sales and EPC relationships.
Key Initiatives
• Rural Distribution Strengthening Scheme (RDSS) and Gati Shakti Initiative: Expected to drive demand for power cables and transformer oil.
Pricing and Competition
• Operating Performance: Stable with minimal fluctuations; premium products offer better pricing power.
• Global Competition: Increased intensity due to improved supply conditions in China.
Order Book and Execution
• Current order book: INR 1,000 crores (50% exports).
• Expected margins: 10% to 12%.
Future Projections
• Transformer Oil Segment: Anticipated significant volume growth.
• Pricing Dynamics: Long-term sustainable price level expected at INR 25,000.
Conclusion
• Overall optimism about future growth driven by domestic demand and government initiatives, despite potential short-term challenges in export markets.

Submission Details
• Date of submission: May 12, 2023
• Compliance with SEBI (LODR) Regulations, 2015
• Call held on: May 8, 2023
• Key management present:
• Mr. Kushal Desai (Chairman and Managing Director)
• Mr. Chaitanya Desai (Managing Director)
• Mr. Ramesh Iyer (CFO)
• Transcript available on the company's website
Financial Performance
• Q4 FY '23 Results:
• Consolidated revenue: INR 4,089 crores (36% YoY increase)
• EBITDA: INR 445 crores (146% increase)
• PAT: INR 243 crores (194% increase)
• Full Fiscal Year Results:
• Revenue: INR 14,352 crores (54% growth)
• PAT: INR 638 crores (148% increase)
• Exports: 49% of total revenue (all-time high)
Sector Insights
• Power sector growth: 8.4% increase in electricity production
• Renewable energy: 20% increase in solar capacity, contributing 22% of total power generation
Segment Performance
• Conductor Division:
• Q4 revenue: INR 2,121 crores (41% growth)
• Exports: 58% of revenue
• Oil Division:
• Revenue: INR 1,179 crores (28% increase)
• Cable Division:
• Revenue: INR 943 crores (38% increase)
Future Outlook
• Optimism for continued growth despite potential post-COVID demand tapering
• Investment plans: INR 400-450 crores in capital expenditures over 12-18 months
• Expected revenue growth: 10-15% for conductors, 25-30% for cables
Market Dynamics
• Anticipated increase in conductor volumes (10%) and oil segment (5%)
• Concerns about competition from Chinese manufacturers affecting pricing and margins
• 40% of projected INR 5,000 crores revenue from premium products
Order Pipeline
• Pending order book: INR 5,000 crores for conductors, INR 1,200 crores for cables
• Execution timelines: 6-8 months for conductors, one quarter for cables
Competitive Landscape
• Increased competition in export markets, particularly from Chinese companies
• Focus on premium products to maintain margins and profitability
Renewable Energy Focus
• Over 70% of export order book linked to renewable energy projects
• Anticipated growth in U.S. and Australia markets for solar installations
Conclusion
• Long-term growth metrics remain strong despite expected margin adjustments
• Continued emphasis on product differentiation and market expansion in renewable sectors

Submission Details
• Date of Submission: February 22, 2023
• Event Date: February 15, 2023
• Organizer: Nirmal Bang
• Compliance: SEBI (LODR) Regulations, 2015
• Key Personnel: CFO Mr. Ramesh Iyer, signed by Harishkumar Malsatter
Key Growth Opportunities
• Renewable Energy:
• Increased demand for products in solar and wind sectors.
• Infrastructure development for power generation and transmission.
• Infrastructure Spending:
• Global investment in public transportation and electric vehicles.
• Need for charging stations and cabling solutions.
• 5G Rollout:
• Expansion of 5G networks, particularly in the U.S., driving telecom solutions demand.
Business Performance Highlights
• Conductor and Cable Divisions:
• Significant growth driven by exports and premium products.
• Premium products made up 50% of conductor business by end of 2022.
• Exports in cable division increased from 25% to 50% of sales.
• Oil and Lubricants:
• Modest growth expected, supported by transformer oil demand.
Revenue and Risk Management
• Revenue Mix:
• Exports account for 47% of sales.
• Risk Management:
• 45% of receivables secured.
• Strategies for managing metal price volatility and hedging forex/interest rate risks.
EBITDA Margins and Projections
• Conductor Business:
• High EBITDA margins driven by exports and premium products.
• Expected stabilization around INR 25,000 per ton.
• Cable Business:
• Projected 25-30% value growth over five years.
• Recent margins increased to 11.8%.
Product Insights
• Conductor vs. Cable:
• Conductors are bare aluminum for long-distance transmission; cables are insulated for specialized applications.
• Low Voltage Distribution Cables (LDC):
• Growth projected from INR 120 crores to INR 500 crores in coming years.
Customer Acceptance and Market Expansion
• E-beam House Wires:
• Strong customer interest due to safety features.
• Defense Cables:
• Increasing demand for specialized applications.
Future Outlook
• Capex Plans:
• INR 300-350 crores in FY '24 for growing demand.
• Growth Projections:
• 25-50% value growth in cables and 15% in conductors.
• Market Share:
• Potential increase in cable division's share to over 50% in the next five to seven years.

Presentation Submission
• Date: February 15, 2023
• Event: Nuvama India Conference (February 8, 2023)
• Key Management: CFO Ramesh Iyer, Executive CFO Vivek Diwadkar
Key Growth Opportunities
• Renewable Energy Sector
• Demand for cables in solar and wind installations.
• Leading market share in wind (70-75%) and solar cables (40%).
• Infrastructure Spending
• Increased global infrastructure initiatives post-COVID.
• Opportunities from U.S. Inflation Reduction Act and urban electrification.
• Telecom and 5G Rollout
• Extensive cabling and networking solutions required for telecom expansion.
Conductor Division Insights
• Significant growth with 45% of revenue from exports.
• Introduction of premium products like HTLS conductors.
• Competitive positioning against Chinese imports due to favorable trade agreements.
Cable Business Transformation
• Shift towards specialty products, particularly elastomeric cables.
• Revenue growth in E-beam technology segment from ₹20 crores to an expected ₹200 crores.
• Expansion of distributor presence and operations across India.
Profitability Trends
• Gradual increase in cable segment margins from pre-COVID levels to 12% in Q3.
• Long-term margin guidance of ₹20,000 to ₹25,000 per metric ton.
• Anticipated growth rates: 15% for conductors, 25-30% for cables, and 5-6% for oil.
Export Growth and Market Dynamics
• Exports now account for 50% of business mix, up from 25%.
• Focus on high-margin specialized cables, particularly in defense.
• Capacity utilization for cables at 80-85%, with plans for significant CAPEX investments.
Capital Expenditure and Future Outlook
• Increased CAPEX driven by renewable energy opportunities.
• Payback period for investments expected to be under three years.
• Optimism about growth in cables and transformer oil markets.
Risk Management and Competitive Positioning
• Robust hedging mechanisms to mitigate commodity price risks.
• Competitive advantage over Chinese products due to lower import duties.
• Focus on maintaining stable long-term EBITDA levels despite geopolitical risks.
Conclusion
• Management remains confident in sustainable growth across all divisions, with a focus on premium products and strategic investments to capitalize on emerging market opportunities.

Submission of Conference Transcripts
• Date of submission: February 13, 2023
• Conference date: February 6, 2023
• Compliance with SEBI (LODR) Regulations, 2015
• Transcripts available on the company's website
• Signed by: Sanjaya Kunder, Company Secretary
Growth Opportunities
• Focus on three business segments: renewable energy, public transportation, and 5G rollout
• Innovations in electron beam technology for house wiring
• Confidence in sustained year-on-year growth due to global infrastructure demands
• Improvements in profitability from premium products in the conductor segment
Market Dynamics and Revenue Sources
• 44% of revenue from five key product lines
• Shift towards exporting standard conductors due to low margins in India
• Competitive edge in international markets, especially the U.S.
• Increased base price per ton from INR 8,000-12,000 to INR 22,000-24,000
Geopolitical Factors and Initiatives
• Rising demand for non-Chinese components
• RDSS initiative for enhancing power distribution in rural India
• Importance of Medium Voltage Covered Conductors (MVCC) for safety
Renewable Energy Sector Opportunities
• Anticipated growth in solar and wind installations
• Strong market position in wind energy
• Projected increase in cable exports from 40% to 60-70%
Cost Dynamics in Energy
• Wind energy margins around single digits; solar margins at 12-14%
• Growth in elastomeric cables and electron beam-based cables
• Plans for INR 350 crores in capital expenditure for capacity expansion
R&D and Customer Solutions
• Strong R&D capabilities and focus on customer-driven solutions
• Established R&D centers in all plants
• Projected business growth exceeding INR 10,000 crores in five years
B2C Segment and Distribution Growth
• B2C growth reducing working capital needs
• Expansion of distribution network from 19 to 97 distributors
• Strategy to enhance product offerings and market presence
Key Growth Drivers
• Infrastructure demand for renewable energy and public transportation
• Rising data transmission needs and electrical consumption
• Global trend benefiting companies with the right products
Product Evolution and Turnkey Projects
• Integration of fiber optic technology into ground wires
• Expansion into copper-based products for railway electrification
• Focus on customized solutions in high-efficiency conductors
Transmission Based Competitive Bidding (TBCB)
• TBCB participants not primary customers for turnkey solutions
• Emphasis on long-term capacity planning for transmission infrastructure
Specialty Oil and Lubrication Business
• Competitive landscape in lubricants
• Focus on solution-based products in specialty cables
Export Growth and Compliance
• Largest exporter of cables in India with projected export revenue of INR 1,500 crores for FY '23
• Compliance with international standards and improved production efficiency
Capacity and Revenue Potential
• Conductor and cable divisions operating at nearly full capacity
• Planned INR 350 crores capital expenditure expected to yield INR 3,500 crores in sales
Future Growth Expectations
• Steady revenue range of INR 22,000 to INR 25,000
• Projected growth rates: 25% in cable business, double-digit in conductor business, 5% in oil segment
• Long-term average growth trend around 20% acknowledged as realistic
Additional Information
• Updated company presentation available on the website for more details.

Conference Call Overview
• Date: February 6, 2023
• Focus: Unaudited financial results for Q3 FY2023
• Key Participants:
• Kushal Desai (Chairman and Managing Director)
• Chaitanya Desai (Managing Director)
• Ramesh Iyer (CFO)
• Moderator: Ambesh Tiwari (S-Ancial Technologies)
Financial Performance Highlights
• Consolidated Revenue: ₹3,942 crores (77% YoY increase)
• EBITDA: ₹349 crores (174% increase)
• Profit After Tax: ₹170 crores (210% increase)
• Export Revenue: 49% of total revenue, 144% increase
Segment Performance
• Conductor Division: 103% revenue growth
• Oil Division: 38% revenue growth
• Cable Division: 89% revenue growth
Future Growth Outlook
• Positive impact expected from India's power consumption growth and RDSS scheme.
• Focus on renewable energy and international markets.
Key Inquiries and Responses
• Sustainable EBITDA per Ton:
• Short-term: ₹30,000
• Long-term: ₹22,000 - ₹24,000
• Geographical Markets:
• Key markets for standard products: U.S., Australia, Latin America.
• Cable Business Growth Target: 25-30% with exports now at 50% of sales.
Strategic Initiatives
• Expansion of distribution network for B2C cable business.
• Focus on high-margin products in renewable energy sectors.
• Investment in capital expenditure of ₹300 crores over 15 months.
Market Dynamics
• Impact of Ukraine Crisis: "China plus one" strategy benefits Indian companies.
• Telecom and Convergence Business: Growth expected with dedicated team and focus on OPGW and 5G.
Financial Management
• Interest-bearing acceptances: ₹3,400 crores.
• Emphasis on maintaining return on equity (ROE) around 18-21%.
• Plans for reinvestment over dividend payouts.
Closing Remarks
• Emphasis on short-term and medium-term growth opportunities.
• Focus on established products and markets for positive momentum.